BPOs and Employee Engagement with Luke Jamieson

This week on the show, we’re talking about BPOs, Business Process Outsourcers, and the role they serve in customer support organizations. Now, once you pull back the curtain on using BPOs for customer support, you wouldn’t be blamed for conjuring stories of customer service frustration, long wait times, mysterious call routing, the works. This week’s guest has a different perspective and the call center leadership CV to back it up.

At the top of the list of Luke Jamieson’s many credentials, he’s a customer experience maven and has much to teach about how the BPO relationship can enhance relationships up and down the customer experience chain. He’s also a podcaster, blogger, and author of the soon-to-be-released book More Sense, Less Incentive, and he’s a solutions architect right here at Upland.

Luke joins Pete Wright to discuss the trends in BPO utility for customer service and the best-in-class dedication many BPOs are providing their teams to reaffirm their commitment to client brand frontline representatives, building development paths for positions often considered fungible, and giving frontline staff the right knowledge management tools can bring renewed agency and empowerment to the individual representatives using them.

• Learn more about Upland Software’s BPO Offering: Panviva
• Download the eBook: “Empowering KM Excellence: How Panviva helps BPOs level up
• Upland Software BPO Datasheet
• Connect with Luke on LinkedIn
• Follow Luke on Twitter

Transcript

Pete Wright: 

Hello everybody and welcome to Connected Knowledge on TruStory FM. I’m Pete Wright. This week on the show, we’re talking about BPOs (Business Process Outsourcing) for keeping up with strong employment engagement initiatives. To help us better understand the lay of the BPO land in this surprising space, maybe, we’ve got a slam dunk guest. At the top of the list of Luke Jamieson’s many credentials, he’s a customer experience maven and has much to teach about how the BPO relationship can enhance relationships all around. He’s also author of soon-to-be released book More Sense, Less Incentive, and a Solutions Architect right here at Upland. Luke, welcome to Connected Knowledge. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Thanks, Pete. Thanks for having me. 

Pete Wright: 

Oh, I’m thrilled to have you here. First of all, great to meet you. Heard so much about you and eager to be your humble student in this land of BPOs. First, when I think of BPOs, I think of big manufacturing organizations. They’re sending out major parts of their manufacturing operations to outsourcers. Give me a framework for how we’re supposed to think about BPOs in the land of employee engagement. 

Luke Jamieson: 

That’s a good question, and I think the reality is that BPOs are experts in their field. They’ve found a niche where they can absolutely do the same thing over and over again, at a lower cost with all the newest technology, and do that for you as if it’s your own. That is where their key strength is from a BPO. It’s not that big manufacturer churn and burn. It is absolutely diving into something that they’re passionate about and doing it really, really well. 

Pete Wright: 

For years, at least from a development perspective in-sourcing, I thought, was all the rage. Let’s take control of 100% of what we need to control to build these relationships. Sounds like we’re going the other way. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Well, it’s a bit of opposites attract, I think, at the moment. So, if we think about what’s happened in the world, in the last couple of years, you’re right. Everyone was, “Let’s take control. Let’s bring that in.” However, what we saw is we saw this big, particularly here in the APAC region, we saw a lot of contact center work going overseas. So, we would see big numbers of roles, 5,000 roles, heading overseas into the Philippines per company. 

And what then happened across the pandemic is everyone had to work from home. And all of a sudden, we realized that there wasn’t this infrastructure there to support that at the time. And so, everyone was like, “Quick, quick, bring it all back onshore. Let’s make sure that we’re able to control this and we can take calls and do all the things that we need to do.” The challenge with that is, at the time when a lot of roles went offshore, and I’m sure this is the same globally. When everything went offshore, there was a bit of uproar about it. “Oh, jobs are going overseas,” kind of thing. 

Pete Wright: 

Oh, yeah. Nationalist panic. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Yeah. Of course, of course. However, now that everything’s coming back onshore during that pandemic, what we’ve found is that there is not enough people to service all of these roles. So, all of a sudden, right across the industry, we are seeing massive amount of churn, massive amount of work trying to attract people to work in these organizations. And the way to attract them is by creating a great employee engagement, a great employee experience. So, we’ve gone from offshoring to now on shoring. We’ve gone from insourcing now to outsourcing again. The whole purpose around this is that we are trying to figure out how do we drive massive engagement in an environment which historically has a lot of churn and is seen as an entry level role. 

Pete Wright: 

And doing so at a scale, that I imagine, check me when I start lying. Doing so at a scale that is largely unprecedented, both in terms of what we’re trying to recruit toward and the fact that, to your point, so many of these people are working outside of infrastructure that we’re used to. This isn’t your call center. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Exactly. Exactly. So, this is the other piece, is that this is not about the outsourcing space, and I think historically a lot of people have thought about outsourcing because of the cost. So, particularly in contact centers, they’re often seen as a cost center. Right now, in the current lay of the land, it’s not really about cost. And although we’re seeing a lot of economic disturbance right now, and everyone’s a bit worried about, are we going to end up in trouble with what’s happening around the world financially? It’s not that the big reason for outsourcing at the moment, from what I’ve seen, is that it’s around the fact that this employee engagement and attraction is a massive burden. 

So, I was recently talking to quite a large recruiter here in Australia, and they’ve got a sweet spot, as well. So, if unemployment hits that 5% mark, their world speeds up quite a lot. If it gets to, say 3%, their world is super quiet. And so, there’s a sweet spot in there somewhere. Now, right now, unemployment here in Australia is around that 3% mark. And so, what we’re finding is that internally within organizations, within these big enterprises, they’re fighting for talent and it’s taking a huge amount of effort. Then on the other side of things of creating this great employee experience and driving employee engagement, and we’ll talk about what employee engagement looks like, what great employee engagement looks like. But to do that well requires a huge lift and a huge amount of effort. 

And I think organizations are at this point where they’re saying, “Well, do we have the resources to be able to do this? And can someone do that better? And can we stop worrying about having to find great talent? Can we just give that to somebody else?” And if they’ve got a great culture and they can look, feel, sound and align with our purpose, then why are we absolutely killing ourselves to try and build this? 

Pete Wright: 

So, let’s transition then to functionally what a best-in-class employee engagement organization looks like. And you bring up the employee engagement and attraction burden, that’s a new way for me to think about that. So, how do these initiatives help address the shortfall in employee engagement? 

Luke Jamieson: 

I think historically, what we hear as a common term is reward and recognition. And that is then defined as our employee engagement strategy. And what happens is, when we lump those two things together, we think they are the same thing, and they are completely different. So, to reward someone is an extrinsic thought process. It’s, “You do this, you get that,” and it becomes this tick for tack kind of approach. And extrinsic is loud, but it doesn’t last long. And yet that is what we approach for the most part as our way of engagement. 

Recognition on the other hand, is something completely different. It’s taking a moment to appreciate somebody. It’s taking that moment to recognize that they have achieved a goal, they’ve reached a milestone. And that intrinsic motivation is way more powerful. It’s very quiet, but it lasts so much longer. And organizations who are doing really great, best practice employee engagement are really focused on that intrinsic. They are having cultures of appreciation. The reward is something that is just something in the background. 

And the idea of having this intrinsic motivation goes beyond just appreciation, recognition. What is it within humans that is actually getting us up in the morning? What is it that’s keeping us motivated? And motivation in itself is quite interesting. Motivation can’t be always, always on, and this is the thing that we try and do with reward. It’s like, okay, our motivation’s dropping, let’s just throw more reward at it. We get that small dopamine hit. But then what happens is the next time we give that reward, the dopamine hit isn’t quite as much. So, we need to do a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. We throw- 

Pete Wright: 

It doesn’t take long for it to become trite. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Exactly. Exactly right. And when we start thinking about even little things like, “Oh, great, so I’ve got a gift card for all the work that I’ve just done, like whoop de do.” It just no longer feels like it’s got any meaning. 

And so, then having to think about what is it that motivates humans? We have an incredible need for purpose. So, we are purpose driven beings in everything we do. And so, we’re seeking this sense of purpose. We’re seeking a sense of meaning in what we do. And so that’s a huge part, I think, of where contact centers have missed is connecting. What is it that I do? What is it of picking up this phone call that actually has any meaning or any impact? And how does that align with the purpose of our organization? How does that align with my purpose? And we miss that. And we do that from the get-go. 

So, what happens is you see contact center roles online and what is the first thing it says? This is an entry level role, a steppingstone in your career. We say all of these things of low skills needed. And then as an industry, everyone goes, why we churning people? Why are they moving on so fast? Well, you told them from the beginning. 

Pete Wright: 

You told them to. Yeah, that’s actually fascinating because it’s not just from the beginning of an individual job placement, this is a generational sort of lack of appreciation for the role of a call center. They’ve been fungible from jump. This is a replaceable resource. And I think it’s so fascinating to hear you talk about not just the reward economy that extrinsic, we’ll shout it from the rooftop that you’ve been here for two years and give you a watch. But the emotional economy of, we value you and your strengths by giving you agency and control in your career with us in this role. And I’m curious, how do contact centers make the jump from, we are fungible to we have value beyond the sum of all these parts. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Yeah, you mentioned something there, Pete—the aspect of control. And for a long time, contact centers have been all about delivering on “do it this way, read this script, meet these KPIs.” And these KPIs are driven down to these microseconds, and they have no meaning on the individual. You don’t see the impact that flow has, and you feel like you have no control. And that sense of autonomy and ownership is also another massive driver for employee engagement. 

So best practice, where I see contact centers doing really, really well in engagement is that they’re giving up that control. They’re giving autonomy to their agents. They’re allowing them to treat the role as if it’s their own business. And all of a sudden when you have that ownership, you have a very different perspective on how you would approach it. So, this is something that I’m seeing a massive shift in, and that is where you see some of these BPOs really starting to excel. Because they have … their entire business is focused around one thing, which is customer service and taking phone calls, doing live chats, doing emails. 

These are the processes that they’re used to. They know the process, but now they’re all just focused on … and they’ve refined those processes down to a fine art. Now the focus is on, “let’s find the right individuals and let’s show them how we connect what someone does near the output.” What that looks like is realizing that every single interaction that you have with a customer has impact. This is going to sound dramatic, but you have the ability to change someone’s life. And it’s probably really easy to put in a scenario where it’s like an emergency services call and- 

Pete Wright: 

Sure, right. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Course. But what about even just the day to day, someone working in a banking institution? I had to call my bank this week because I’m going through the process of a home loan. The information that I got on that call changed how I thought about what I was going to do. The information I got has switched that whole trajectory I was on. And that literally has changed my life in a way. Now, I don’t know if that agent knows that or not, but that— 

Pete Wright: 

You kind of hope they do. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Exactly. 

Pete Wright: 

You kind of hope that they recognize they are frontline messenger for the brand. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Exactly. That’s exactly right. And they are. They are the keepers of the brand, and we forget that so often. We forget that so often. 

Pete Wright: 

Well, we forget that in the context as a customer. It’s so easy to look at them and go “oh, they’re just entry level, whatever, blah, blah, blah.” But as you say, they just change the way you take your steps forward on an incredibly valuable investment in your life. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Exactly. 

Pete Wright: 

That’s power is what it is. That’s a lot of power. So, I think the question is, and I’m curious, I know you have had experience at a call center yourself, right? You worked in a call center. I’m curious how your thinking has evolved since your personal call center experience. How does that influence your work today, helping to define the call center of the future? 

Luke Jamieson: 

Sure. So, look, one of the things that I always noticed when I was running contact centers, and it comes down to this sense of autonomy and ownership, is that how do you provide that? Why do you want to provide that? And what happens is we create this expectation gap very early on in the onboarding process. So, when we bring somebody on, we say, we’re going to train you, you’re going to go through three weeks’ worth of training. You’re going to come out, you’re going to be ready to take your first call. 

I remember my first call. I remember my fingers shaking as I go to push the button. I was so nervous. I was full of fear, and I didn’t feel ready. And by way of background, I didn’t come from a corporate background. I was a baker and pastry chef. So, this was a huge transition for me to all of a sudden be sitting at a desk and taking a phone call which doesn’t sound like it’s a difficult job, but it is immensely stressful. So, there was this huge expectation gap in myself of what I thought I was told I’d be ready, I did not feel ready. And I was ready to quit. And we see that right across the industry, that has not changed in 20 years. The highest proportion of when people leave is during the induction or just after induction, because they’ve realized they don’t feel ready. And instead of pushing back on the organization saying, “Teach me” they just leave. 

 Pete Wright: 

Fungible resources. They can leave. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Exactly. Exactly. And so, knowledge management I found was a huge part for that. And knowledge management is, I think, the key to reducing some of that expectation gap. Because in the past, when I first started contact centers, you didn’t have a knowledge management system. It was a folder that you would sit there and flip through. 

Pete Wright: 

Yeah, correct. 

Luke Jamieson: 

But now, you see the power of that because you don’t need to then teach someone to know every single thing. You don’t have to spend six weeks in an induction to know everything. And then when you get out on the floor, you don’t have to know everything. You just need to know where to go. And so, when I was then running contact centers, for me, how do we reduce that expectation gap? And that was definitely around knowledge management. We’ve seen how knowing where to go, being able to get the right answer at the right time for the right person boosts your confidence as an agent. 

And then, when you are as an agent feeling confident, you then stop thinking about the process and you start to think about the person at the other end and make a true connection. And then the customer’s getting the right thing. They’re then feeling engaged. They’re feeling confident that you know what you’re talking about. They’re less likely to call back. It’s this massive flow on effect that we see in this space. So, I think that that’s definitely, if we’re going to think about what is it that BPOs can do to win, then I think you’re really investing in something like knowledge management and giving … which is not about investing in technology, although that the technology is the enabler. It’s investing in your people and investing in their knowledge, their confidence, and investing in your customer. So, it’s a huge way, you would really think about why you’re doing that. 

Pete Wright: 

This is one of my favorite subjects. This idea that we are able to, as you say, with the enabling technology in place, we’re able to take people who might see themselves in a fungible job. Who might have such a low opinion of what they’re doing with their lives right now, and give them the agency to feel like, yeah, there’s opportunity, there’s potential career growth. I recognize I can live up to performance initiatives that are set up. I know that I can be trained to do more things because I don’t necessarily have to feel like I’m drowning in the folder of loose-leaf pages to figure out the answer. I don’t have to feel like I’m drowning. Let’s then dig into a little bit of the enabling technology that allows them to get there. 

Luke Jamieson: 

As you say, agents often feel like it’s not a worthy job. It is a worthy job. Instead of sitting there and being like, “Where do you work? I work in a contact center.” There should be pride in that because we want to provide that. And in order to do that, we need to provide a sense of mastery that there is a challenge there that needs to be mastered. In order to do that, how do you master that? You know your job. 

So, let’s talk about the technology. A knowledge management system, a good knowledge management system—and that is why I moved from being a practitioner and running contact centers, to moving into an organization that provides knowledge management systems. Is because I believe in this process, I believe in the technology and the fundamental reason as to why it’s there. Because what we’re doing is we’re creating knowledge for the right person, and for that to be delivered in a really quick and easy way. So, I think a lot of people, a lot of organizations mistake knowledge management with a SharePoint page. 

Pete Wright: 

Yes. 

Luke Jamieson: 

It’s no different than a digital flip book that I used to have. Flip through as many things as you can, find the index, go to that page, look for the thing, read that massive bulk of text, decipher what I need out of that piece of text, and then put that in layman’s terms to the customer. That that’s a process of text. 

Pete Wright: 

Read what’s in italics on screen. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Well, there’s a cognitive load, as well, in there. That you have to decipher that and reword that. A knowledge management system does that for you. It breaks it down into the most relevant piece of information, it finds that sentence, it finds those italics, brings that to you, and frames it in a way that you don’t have to represent that in layman’s terms and reformat that. And it removes that cognitive load. 

And again, by removing that cognitive load and I see that. Look, I’ve got a six-year-old daughter and she’s going through that early stage of learning, where you see her computing numbers and working through things on her fingers to do addition and subtraction. I saw that in her reading, sitting there spelling each single word. The cognitive load, you see that happening. But then when it switches, and that’s removed and it becomes second nature, the focus is no longer around pronouncing the word. It’s around the expression and bringing life into the story. 

And it’s the same for these conversations that we have with people. We take this cognitive load away through things like knowledge management and delivering the right information in bite size pieces that’s relevant, and all of a sudden, you’re having an engaging conversation. All of a sudden, they’re putting life into this conversation. They’re picturing a real person at the end of the phone, not just a process that they need to work through. No longer is it focusing on, oh, how do I just get this person off the phone? Where do I find that information quickly? It’s about, oh, this is the right answer. Let’s make sure it’s for the right reasons, and let’s dive in and allows them to then ask probing questions which in the past you probably would never do. It’s just like answer the question, move on. I don’t want to ask probing questions because that’s only going to mean I’ve got to think and find more pages. 

 Pete Wright: 

I’m locked further into the rush of knowledge searching and the panic that exists. I love the way you put that. You are reducing the cognitive load. And in a sense, the other side of that is we’re enabling more of the emotional connection. And more of the brand connection, frankly, which I’m curious your sense as you’re working with customers, to what degree business units, who have engaged in outsourcing, are seeing and reaping the results of call centers that have employed these kinds of tools. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Yeah, absolutely. Where we have seen that shift is that you’ve got people who are dedicated to the course. We work with some really large organizations, where we’ve seen them shift that process to an outsource. We’ve seen the outsourcers using technology such as knowledge management. We’ve seen an increase in customer experience, which is what we’re all driving for. 

The number one driver of poor customer satisfaction is that I’ve got to call back again. So, how do we reduce that? We reduce that by giving them the right information. So, let’s get the fundamentals right, and that’s what knowledge management does. It provides you with the right information. That then provides the confidence, which then provides the customer experience. But then what that also does is it provides the agent this feeling that they are empowered. It provides them the feeling that what they’re doing has meaning, it has purpose, it has impact. And all of a sudden, they’re saying, “well, okay, I’m doing a good job. Actually, this is role of being in a contact center isn’t just a steppingstone. This is a career. This is a career in and of itself. I might stick around.” 

It’s a bit of a virtuous cycle. As humans, we have a massive thirst for learning. And we want to consume, we want to learn, but we often need a catalyst to learn. And so, once we learn that, so think about like, hey, I need to learn how to change a tire quickly. First thing you’re going to do is go on YouTube and learn that, figure it out. 

Pete Wright: 

Sure. 

Luke Jamieson: 

We create those moments of learning. And which is why knowledge management is great. These moments of learning happen because they’re incited by the customer. We take that. We find that little micro piece of learning in knowledge management. We learn. Once we know that, though, we do something really interesting. We start to nurture that learning, we put value around that knowledge that we’ve just taken. When we value something, we tend to nurture it. So maybe not a monetary value, but within ourselves, we start to create that value. Once we nurture it, we start to then have pride in that knowledge. So, we start to put labels around it, we start to say, oh, this person is a subject matter expert. Then when we have those moments of pride. We then want to invest that back into what we do, into our roles. So that’s kind of a virtuous cycle from an employee point of view. 

But then from a business point of view, when we are seeing greater customer experience off the back of somebody who’s got great knowledge—they’re proud of what they do, they’ve stuck around longer—we create this great customer experience. Okay, well, now that customer experience drives into us wanting to … we’re now more profitable as a company. We’re also more profitable because we’re not having to spend money recruiting more people and finding more people. Therefore, what do we got this extra money? We’re going to invest that back into our people. And so, then this second virtuous cycle happens, and they start to create this really entwined environment of success. When we start to think about, okay, are we investing … why would we spend our money buying a knowledge management system? Well, it’s not about just refining a process. No, it’s about creating a virtuous cycle within our environment, that’s going to drive greater employee engagement, greater customer satisfaction, and overall business success. That is why we do these things. 

Pete Wright: 

I think we would be remiss if we didn’t give you a little bit more stage time to talk about the Upland tools that you work with to build these solutions for these call centers. Tell us a little bit about the software you love to help invest. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Well, the big reason I joined Upland is that we actually have two knowledge management products. That, to me, is a huge benefit, as a solutions architect. I’m not having to create problems that fit the product. I can genuinely listen to the challenges that an organization has and find the right product to fit those situations. 

Now, the two products we have. We have Upland, Panviva and Upland RightAnswers. And both products have their own space. So, knowledge management, from a Panviva perspective, it’s very much focused on that contact center space where you’ve got an agent who is needing that information. Within that product, we also have something very clever called a Digital Orchestrator. And what it does is it takes your core piece of knowledge and then tops and tails that essentially, depending on your channel. So maybe if you are on the voice channel, then it’s going to give you a different intro and exit. If you’re a chat agent, then that information, that core information, needs to be much more summarized and fit for purpose for that channel. And the website may be different, as well. So that Digital Orchestrator helps refine that information in the right voice for the right channel. 

In relation to the RightAnswer side of things—if we think about this from a ticket deflection and we think about maybe IT service desks, and where you go and FAQs on your website—gets in there to help with ticket deflection, helps with customer self-service. And I think one of the other cool things that we’ve just seen within the RightAnswers product is the integration of things like ChatGPT. One of the biggest barriers to entry that I see within organizations around knowledge management systems is to say, “Oh, the lift of converting all of our information that we have in these folders and in SharePoint, to make that usable within a knowledge management system, it feels like a big lift.” 

If we were to use … and we’re just in the beta phase of the ChatGPT side of things, and I know there’s a lot of stuff around that. But you can use that to refine that information. Take this big piece of text and refine that down into a process for me. And it automatically moves all of that big A4 Word document down into 10 bullet points that are perfect for a contact center. So, there’s some really exciting stuff happening in that space. So, look, the products that we have, as I said, being able to have multiple products is a huge benefit. And to see that development working these new technologies into these existing processes, it’s very exciting for me. 

Pete Wright: 

Well, that’s why I love talking to you about this stuff, man. Because clearly, you have an enthusiasm that is authentic and legitimate. And I wonder for those listening to this, I’m assuming some portion of our audience has come to this particular episode because they’re curious. They’re call center curious. Let’s just say eight o’clock Monday morning, day one, they’re ready to start looking seriously and investing in some of these technologies. What’s the first step? Where do you send them? 

Luke Jamieson: 

Go and spend a day in your agent’s shoes. Go and sit there and see the processes that they’re doing. Go and see how many screens they’re having to move over to. Go, go and have a look at how many times they have to reference multiple areas. And take note of how often they have to refine that message. And look at the effort that takes, just in that. Forget about cognitive load and all of that. Just think about the time and effort it takes in that particular space. 

Because we know in BPOs, it’s all about creating efficiency and they’re very good at that. They spend years refining down these processes so that they’re super efficient. And as customers, we want that too. As a customer, you don’t want to be on the phone for hours. Knowledge management has an incredible way of bringing that process down into exactly what you need. And that is going to reduce your call time and your call costs. So, there’s an immediate cost benefit from that perspective. 

But then also think about the people that you’ve got. Think about how often you have to train them and how many people you have to bring on board. Culture is a set of behaviors repeated. Now, if you want to create a culture of knowledge and a culture of professionals and a culture of people who are passionate about customer experience and passionate about what they do, then find the things that drive that sense of purpose, sense of impact, sense of mastery. Knowledge management is the place for that. So, the first thing I would say is “Hey, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say, go and check out the website, go and check out Uplands website and have a look at the resources that are available on there.” And then, just have a chat and see some of the use cases of where we have … if I think about Maximus, for example, one of the big organizations we work with in the BPO space. Go and have a look at the use case on that space and convince yourself that way. 

Pete Wright: 

I love it. Well, you started with just a raw process audit. Let’s just see what the process is like right now. If that doesn’t convince you, don’t know what else will. 

Luke Jamieson: 

Exactly. 

Pete Wright: 

Hey Luke, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me, to educate me on some of the work that you’re doing. We’ve got resources in the show notes, wherever you’re listening to the podcast, swipe up, swipe sideways, whichever direction swipes take you, to get to those links and notes. They’re all in there where you can find out more about Upland Software tools that Luke has mentioned today. And where would you like to … do you want to send people to any link to hookup with you, ask you questions? Is that open for business, Luke? 

Luke Jamieson: 

Absolutely. Look, if you want to connect with me, LinkedIn is a absolutely great channel, so pretty easy to find me there, Luke Jamieson. And I’m pretty active on Twitter, as well, and I like to keep that all very positive for me. I think Twitter’s a very negative place, and so my goal is to make that way more positive. So that’s @LukeCXEX. 

Pete Wright: 

Outstanding. Links in the show notes. Everybody, thank you so much for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time and attention. On behalf of Luke Jamieson, I’m Pete Wright. We’ll see you next time right here on Connected Knowledge.